C.J. Collier, long-time Free Software supporter, explores BoycottNovell's desire to help facilitate positive change in the way proprietary and Free Software companies do business.
Full story »C.J. Collier, long-time Free Software supporter, explores BoycottNovell's desire to help facilitate positive change in the way proprietary and Free Software companies do business.
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lozz
16 years 4 weeks 5 hours 34 min ago
Point not made
Having waded through this confusing post I completely fail to see that it either demonstrates "BoycottNovell's desire to help facilitate positive change in the way proprietary and Free Software companies do business", or not.
Is it incumbent on BoycottNovell to, "facilitate positive change in the way proprietary and Free Software companies do business"?
Does anyone in the Free Software Community really care a jot about how Microsoft and Novell do business? I don't, but I do care about M$ continually working to wipe us out.
There has been an ongoing campaign, by Novell and M$ supporters, to discredit and silence BoycottNovell and this is yet another attempt.
The author obviously works for M$ and has connections with the treacherous Novell company. He has attempted to provoke BoycottNovell into saying something he can use to discredit him with, and failed.
Having failed dismally in his attempt he has posted it anyway, probably in the hope that no-one would actually wade through the tiresome document to find it was all vapourware, and failed in this intent, as well.
schestowitz
16 years 4 weeks 3 hours 51 min ago
Content does not support the headline
The headline makes some vague accusation that's not supported in the text. Moreover, if that matters as all, the author has admitted working on Microsoft software. He entered the IRC channel to plant bait, by his own admission that he made within seconds after entering.
Why spend so much time attacking credibility of messengers? It's beyond me.
Read the text, ignore this unsupported headline.
zerogravity
16 years 4 weeks 37 min 44 sec ago
Curious
Seemed to me that CJ was asking an honest question when you guys decided to kick-ban him because he caught on to the truth - you guys aren't interested in helping to fix the problems you complain about. You're just interested in standing on your own soap box and decrying Novell craving attention hoping to stay in the spotlight.
lozz
16 years 3 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago
What truth?
CJ insisting that BoycottNovell should be fixing problems at M$ and Novell is not a truth; it is simply a preposterous suggestion.
Groclaw observes and reports on many of the same matters and no-one insists that Groclaw should be fixing the whole situation.
The simple truth is that Novell is playing a dirty and underhanded game, serving its own interests by placing the entire Free Software Community at risk.
Maybe CJ's time would be better spent fixing *that* little problem rather than trolling sites that do tell the truth about Novell's deceitful conduct, seeking material with which to discredit them.
julianmiles
16 years 3 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago
Re: What truth?
Like your title says, I'm interested in knowing what truth does BoycottNovell ever speak of?
The site is run by an attention-craving crybaby who cries wolf at every little thing, often when he's wrong.
lozz
16 years 3 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago
Christine Keeler response
The Novellisti must be suffering deep feelings of guilt at the dishonourable conduct of their distribution to have to resort to portraying BoycottNovell in this fashion.
They, typically, dismiss his message as an "attention-seeking crybaby who cries wolf at every little thing" while the "wolf"(M$) is sitting right outside their own door.
Every time I hear Novell-M$ types slagging BoycottNovell I'm reminded of Christine Keeler's famous rejoinder;
"Well, they would say that, wouldn't they".
schestowitz
16 years 3 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago
Microsoft employees
Suggesting that I kicked him is a lie (someone else did when I was asleep).
Suggesting that I 'send' people to the Mono channel is a horrible lie.
Is that all they have left? Lies?
Are you a friend of the same group of Microsoft employees who pretend to be FOSS/Mono people?
cjac
16 years 3 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago
you did not kick/ban me...
but it /is/ true that you have not removed that ban in over... 23 hours and counting.
04:01 [freenode] -!- Cannot join to channel #boycottnovell (You are banned)
schestowitz
16 years 3 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago
I didn't kick ANYONE. He's
I didn't kick ANYONE. He's lying again now (about other things too).
FWIW, the guys is a MICROSOFT CONSULTANT.
cjac
16 years 3 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago
you did not kick/ban me...
nor have you removed the ban.
Day changed to 07 Sep 2008
02:42 [freenode] -!- Cannot join to channel #boycottnovell (You are banned)
cjac
16 years 3 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago
Thank you
Thanks for removing the ban, Roy.
cjac
16 years 3 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago
Yows.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
Hey guys,
Yes Roy, I'm working with Microsoft. I don't see why this would make
a difference, though. I guess I could have a conflict of interests.
MS pays for the food that my kids eat, therefore I wouldn't say
anything against them. *shrug* That's a valid point, but I don't
think it's reason for BN to refuse to a) identify the problems that
the boycott is intended to bring to light or b) participate in the
resolution of these as-yet-unidentified problems.
Lozz, I think that zerogravity was referring to the fact that the
participants on the channel failed to identify the problems or offer
solutions. This is certainly the reason I titled the blog post as I
did.
Roy, thank you for clarifying that you were not the one who
kick/banned my hostmask. If you were to remove the ban, I'm sure you
would be taken more seriously.
20:23 [freenode] -!- Cannot join to channel #boycottnovell (You are banned)
Lozz, I was not insisting that BN should fix problems. I was
insisting that the problems which are causing the BN entity to exist
be identified so that they can be solved. The only response to my
repetition of the question was a suggestion that the SEC should
investigate. This is not something that either MS or Novell can
facilitate, other than opening the doors when they knock.
Roy, I did not suggest that you sent people, I asked directly whether
you did. You stated that you did not, which I accept.
I'm really quite serious. Please identify the shortcomings so that
they may be addressed. Let's work together, eh?
Cheers,
C.J.
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lozz
16 years 3 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago
The problems
Well, the problems are very obvious to anyone not looking at the situation through M$-tinted glasses.
Basically, the whole problem is M$, itself. If Hovsepian hadn't crawled into bed with Ballmer we wouldn't have any problems with Novell, but he did and Novell is now widely disrespected in the Free Software Community as a result.
The endemic problems with M$ are so deeply entrenched that no amount of people coming forward and saying;
"Microsoft are a great bunch of guys who have now changed for the better so now we all can get on with working together"
will ever be regarded with anything other than pure skepticism by the Free Software Community.
It's not as if their bad behaviour ended years ago. Sites like BoycottNovell and Groclaw are continuously able to subsist on a daily diet of stories reporting the nefarious conduct of Microsoft world-wide.
Consider, for a moment, Microsoft's current rampaging around the world, corrupting and subverting all the world's standards bodies, threatening, lying, smearing anyone who opposed them, in support of their dubious OOXML format.
Now those standards bodies are being regarded with the same contempt that M$ has already inflicted on Novell.
It's not just me, or BoycottNovell, or Groclaw, not even their own mothers could love them.
M$ and their faithful proxies are continually stalking around the back doors of the governments of the world attempting to cajole them into adopting the same restrictive software patents that has made the US become a legal madhouse for all software developers.
How can we ever start working together with a company like this?
How can we ever "desire to help facilitate positive change in the way proprietary and Free Software companies do business" with a company who has constantly expressed its desire to destroy us?
Gates and Ballmer would have had to be two entirely different characters to what they are for anyone to be able to work peacefully with them.
cjac
16 years 3 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago
Let me distill...
* Microsoft should begin contributing to existing standards instead of pushing its own technologies
* Microsoft should register and/or make explicit its plan for acting on patents it owns which may potentially be violated by future Free Software projects so that developers' creativity is not stifled.
* Novell should be more vocal about denying claims that the Linux kernel and GNU operating systems violate Microsoft patents
Am I missing anything? Please be more specific and technical if you can.
setecastronomy
16 years 3 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago
(Disclaimer: I'm neither
(Disclaimer: I'm neither affiliated with the boycottnovell.com site nor do I find the time to read and participate regularely or often. And I don't claim or pretend to speak for somebody else than myself in this matters)
Your list seems to include some reasonable first steps, yes.
If I may be so rich to introduce some additional items, which would improve MS ability to work together with the FOSS community, I would suggest:
* Stop using IP threats as a differenting / advertising factor when competing with other vendors. Before this deal,
the FOSS marketplace was a "rising tide lifts all the boats" system which is btw. the natural state of affairs in FOSS land. The deal tried to turn this into a "I know a guy who can punch holes into other boats, you know" scenario. Discriminating downstream recipients is incompatible with (at least) the spririt (if not the letter) of Free- and Open Source licenses.
* Stop differentiating between commercial and non-commercial usage which is common place in MS (non OSI approaved) licensing for copyright and other materials and again conflicts with OSI guidelines and the definition of Free software. No amount of sugarcoating will get this behaviour past the throats of large parts of the FOSS community.
* Try to return to MS earlier position (cf Bill Gates memo 1991) that software patents are inherently harmfull to the IT marketplace. I know, MS position back then was not altruistic but motivated by their own lack of an four-digit-per-year-increase software patent portfolio. Software patents are extremly hard to swallow for the F/OSS community, because downstream discrimination is more or less a build in feature and - due to all software being less glorified math - it is hard to forsee a non-trivial (for someone knowledgeable in the field of CS) patentable idea not sufficiently protected by copyright or trade secrets. Given MS current position on software patents, this seems utopic, I know, but prehaps they could start by
- Give a legally binding promis to use your software patnents only defensly, ideally by contributing to organisations like OIN or patent commons. IBM is far from a patent saint, but they at least were able commit to this.
- stop lobbying in countries that currently have no formal software patent framework (e.g. Europe) for pro-software patents legislations.
- Acknowledge that the "reasonable" and "non-discrimatory" parts of RAND-Z can mean different things in different contexts and at least "try" to be *really* reasonable and non-discrimatory (e.g. allow sublicensing when used in F/OSS licenses).
I know that most things in this list (and to be honest: in your list too) is to far from Microsofts current heading to have a realistic chance of being followed.
But since you asked .... .
HTH
Martin
benjimanw
16 years 3 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago
How vocal?
"We disagree with the recent statements made by Microsoft on the topic of Linux and patents. Importantly, our agreement with Microsoft is in no way an acknowledgment that Linux infringes upon any Microsoft intellectual property. When we entered the patent cooperation agreement with Microsoft, Novell did not agree or admit that Linux or any other Novell offering violates Microsoft patents."
http://www.novell.com/linux/microsoft/community_open_letter.html
aboutblank
16 years 3 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago
> Basically, the whole
> Basically, the whole problem is M$, itself. If Hovsepian hadn't crawled into bed with Ballmer we wouldn't have any problems with Novell, but he did and Novell is now widely disrespected in the Free Software Community as a result.
The problem here is the societies of the world contributing to Microsoft's successes. Society chooses to relinquish their freedom to Microsoft by accepting Microsoft's proprietary software. The one and only fix to this problem is to accept only free software. This is why I constantly plea: ignore Microsoft and value your freedom; anything less means that users cannot be free.
cjac
16 years 3 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago
Hey there
Hey there aboutblank,
Microsoft is moving toward releasing the source to their software. It's going to be a long journey, but we're on the first steps of that trip.
http://www.ironruby.net/
http://port25.technet.com/
Would you consider helping, if it meant that you had to work *gasp* with */gasp* Microsoft developers? They don't bite. I promise. I work with them during the day :)
Cheers,
C.J.
aboutblank
16 years 3 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago
You should value your freedom
I don't hate Microsoft just because they're Microsoft. I think Microsoft are equally contemptible as any proprietor of user subjugating software such as Apple, Nintendo, Oracle, American Megatrends Inc. and Adobe. I am indignant towards these companies because of the fact that all these companies fail to respect the user's essential freedoms.
IronRuby and Port25 are acceptable; there is nothing unjust about these things. I don't care for these things as technical resources because I have no interest in Ruby or the .Net framework at this point in time (I am currently working on other things). I also do not care for them as the point of these initiatives is to develop software using open source software development method. I don't care about open source as open source misses the point of free software.
I am happy to work with Microsoft developers if you developers could help me; otherwise, I would be wasting my time. At this moment, I am interested in porting the DirectFB software to work on the GNU operating system running on an Asus Eee PC. I am also interested in liberating the Asus Eee PC by replacing its user subjugating BIOS with Coreboot, the free sofware BIOS replacement.
cjac
16 years 3 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago
How's the HURD coming?
I haven't played with it in a couple of years. Do you know whether the xen guest kernel mods have been integrated? At this point, I should be able to run a HURD instance on top of kvm, eh?
I guess this is getting off topic. See you on #coreboot :)
Balzac
16 years 3 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago
Down-rated for inaccuracy.
Thank goodness for Boycott Novell.
I'm looking forward to Novell's inevitable collapse.
Software patents are pathetic and lame.
cjac
16 years 3 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago
Moo.
Hello Balzac,
Please point out the portions which are inaccurate and I'd be happy to update them. Was it my inaccuracy or BN's?
I'd be happy to discuss things on the IRC channel, except I'm currently being censored there:
We all know that lilo's policy was not to abuse operator status or ban folks for disagreeing with the ops, so long as they're not being abusive.
http://freenode.net/channel_guidelines.shtml
Cheers,
C.J.
Balzac
16 years 3 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago
CJ, I have more important work to do than reading your IRC log.
It seems you and I have a different definition for the word "problem".
I'm arguing that the title "Boycottnovell.com Not Interested In Solving Problems" is not accurate.
BoycottNovell.com is interested in solving a major problem - Microsoft's monopoly which is trying to force software patents down everyone's throat so they can deprive us of our freedom.
Novell is helping Microsoft in this attack on our freedom. BoycottNovell is resisting and for that, I raise a glass of beer to them.
So, do you welcome software patents to restrict our freedom? Are you against software patents? Your answer to this question can save me the time wasted reading bickering in an IRC chat log. Thanks for your participation in this discussion.
zerogravity
16 years 3 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago
If you aren't willing to read...
If you aren't willing to read CJ's blog, how can you accuse him of being inaccurate?
cjac
16 years 3 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago
Patents
In my experience, patents seem to be useful when applied to patentable concepts, ie. mechanical designs, energy generation and transfer systems, etc. I am not certain that thoughtstuff (math, high- or low-level computer code, music, knitting patterns) should be patentable. As I said, I have had no experience in applying for or using patents. If I read a bit on the subject, I may be able to answer the question, but I must admit ignorance on the subject.
I do not welcome restriction of freedom by any means, of course. Ben Franklin had it right there, IMHO.
I disagree with the claim that Novell is helping Microsoft in an attack on freedom. They have quite vocally denied acquiescence with Microsoft's (Ballmer's) claim that the Linux kernel violates Microsoft patents. Can you tell me why you make this claim about Novell?
Since I am not familiar with MS's patent library or the process of filing for or enforcing patents, I can't say with certainty whether or not there are any violations. Since the Linux kernel is, for the most part, an implementation of an existing set of published standards, I expect that 'prior art' would trump any claims. But as I said, I know nearly nothing about this subject.
The reason that I titled the post as I did was because the folks on the IRC channel were not willing to identify problems much less offer solutions to the unidentified problems. I agree that monopolistic practices need to be halted, but I don't know what might fall into this classification.
If we can present a specific checklist of reasonable requests, I think we can start producing some positive change.
Sincerely,
C.J.